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 Date:  Wed, Feb 11, 2004 at 17:44:59 (EST)
 Posted by:  DrLove
 Original URL:  Click here (However, the link may be stale.)
 Subject:  Dear ex premies...and others
Dear “ex premies”,



I am kind of tired of your continuing insulting attitude towards Maharaji and towards us, people who still believe in integrity of the Master, and the experience he offers.

I call for a truth!

Do you think it would be possible for you to stop using images that are designed to knock down the dignity of another human being, and sadden those who love him?

Can your insulting ways and harsh words change to something based on facts, if you have those facts straight?

Do you feel you could document/backup your allegations before writing anything that most times are filled with anger, poor photocopies and “things of the past” before you publish anything on the Internet?

If I were you, and that of course I’m not, I would back up with real documentation (links, names and addresses, official documents) to make my statements and messages more credible to anyone who is reading you. Because you might be individually sound, but all together you make people feel like Maharaji is the last person on earth to be trusted. And that in itself is wrong doing. Because if it wasn’t real, they would be more ex-premies than active ones in the practice of Knowledge. Just think how much it hurts to see what you do.

Your position is not something that helps this world... on the contrary. Understand what you really are creating when you say the things you presume about Maharaji. This is not a battle of good against evil, because there is no battle. Just human beings who likes to feel happy, others who would like to become happy, and those who have lost contact with happiness. And it is not for me to define in which category we all stand individually.

We all have this experience at hand. What we do with it, should remain in the realms of “keep it or leave it”, and not become an endless war zone for anybody’s arguments.

That is the reason why I suggest you stay in your corner of the world standing on facts only, and we ought to stay in our reality without defying your understanding of existence. Which of course doesn’t mean we ought to remain “enemies”.

What I mean by that is... can we just be all kind to each other, beyond belief and ideas and experiences? I would love to see an effort been made on that level. At least I am willing to help it.


If not I would have tried to bring some sense to this whole stupid saga... just once in my life. If it doesn't work... well, I will first evaluate objectively your response to my plead.

Cheers



 Date: 02/11/2004, 10:07:05
 Posted by: Jim
 Original URL: Click here (However, the link may be stale.)
 Subject: A reply to Dr. Love

This is a reply to a post from Dr. Love (who I assume is David Roupell) over in the Catbox.  I feel it's only fair to mention first that Dr. Love's post replaces a typically fair and reasonable post from John which was in turn a reply to a typical nasty, caustic post from One-Reality directed to him.  In other words, One-Reality spat at John, John replied, Cat or some other premie FA erased his response and instead Dr. Love posted the following.  It's too bad these people don't have the courage to actually sustain a discussion.  But that's what the Catbox is all about, isn't it?  Fear and avoidance, vitriol and poison. 

And then there's this ....

Dear “ex premies”,

I am kind of tired of your continuing insulting attitude towards Maharaji and towards us, people who still believe in integrity of the Master, and the experience he offers.

I call for a truth!

Do you think it would be possible for you to stop using images that are designed to knock down the dignity of another human being, and sadden those who love him?

The short answer, David, is yes, it would be possible but no, it ain't gonna happen.  What you have to remember is that Maharaji purports to have much, much more "dignity" than your average human being.  He is, in fact, a pompous ass of a cult leader who believes, and beguiles his followers into believing, that he is so dignified that not a single person alive even approaches his greatness.  If you could imagine hoisting his tubby frame into one pan of a giant scale, according to cult mentality, it would be sheer blasphemy to think of anyone else even sitting in the other pan.  Maharaji believes, as do you, that no one compares to him.  His dignity is that of God himself, you believe.  We ridicule him to offset that thinking.

The other problem you have is that you've never come to terms with the fact that we, as former followers, have our own familiarity with the man.  It's not a perfect fit by any means but you could analogize us to former spouses.  The devotee relationship has some parallels; it's certainly as intense as a marriage in the mind of the devotee, even if the cult leader's attention is somewhere else (such as up the skirt of his mistress).  Former spouses have the knowledge and the right to speak out against their former partners.  Current spouses might not like it but, if they're fair, they must recognize that that's a right those former spouses have earned just by virtue of having been in the relationship.   Current spouses might wish to hell that their partners have no past but if they do, they do.  We are all part of Maharaji's past and we're not going away.  We've earned the right to speak out against Maharaji however we wish.  Fair-minded people outside your cult wouldn't think of questioning that fact.  It's beyond obvious.

Can your insulting ways and harsh words change to something based on facts, if you have those facts straight?

Do you feel you could document/backup your allegations before writing anything that most times are filled with anger, poor photocopies and “things of the past” before you publish anything on the Internet?

Now this is rich. I'm sorry, but it's impossible to take you people seriously.  I mean, it's hardly as if you ever join us in an issue and discuss it fairly.  You don't want facts or evidence and you know it.  Why, even your very post essentially replaces a reasoned, rational reply that John wrote to an attack against him by your fellow cult member!  What say you to that?  Why aren't you encouraging your fellow Catboxers to constrain themselves, allow opposing views and offer a real forum for discussion?  I'm sorry but you long ago lost any right to complain about the quality of support we offer for anything we say.  Again, any fair-minded person would see that in a second.  

The fact is that exes do offer all sorts of evidence for things we allege.  But as good ol' Jack said in that stupid Tom Cruise movie:  "You want the truth!?  You can't handle the truth!"

Michael Dettmers gives a direct eye-witness account of Maharaji killing a cyclist in India.  Do you say Dettmers is lying.  Why? 

See?  You can't do it.  You can't have this discussion.  That's why the forums, which once were just one gathering place for exes and premies to discuss all this stuff, have evolved as they have.  You guys are afraid to engage us rationally.  So shut up already, please, about our failure to back anything up.  You gave up that right a long, long time ago.

If I were you, and that of course I’m not, I would back up with real documentation (links, names and addresses, official documents) to make my statements and messages more credible to anyone who is reading you. Because you might be individually sound, but all together you make people feel like Maharaji is the last person on earth to be trusted. And that in itself is wrong doing. Because if it wasn’t real, they would be more ex-premies than active ones in the practice of Knowledge. Just think how much it hurts to see what you do.

Yes, I'm sure it does hurt you to see and hear our reaction to Maharaji. I don't know what to tell you except for sometimes the truth hurts, I guess.  But as for the number of exes versus active premies, come on, you've got to be kidding!  There is a relatively small number of interested, vocal exes like us but you know as do we all that most people who ever joined this cult left it far behind.  All you have to do is fish out one of your old community or ashram pictures.  Maybe an old phone list.  Whatever.  Again, too, too obvious for words.

Your position is not something that helps this world... on the contrary. Understand what you really are creating when you say the things you presume about Maharaji. This is not a battle of good against evil, because there is no battle. Just human beings who likes to feel happy, others who would like to become happy, and those who have lost contact with happiness. And it is not for me to define in which category we all stand individually.

Are you actually saying that we've lost contact with happiness?  Just because we've stopped worshipping your fatted calf?  Really, Doc, you're a fool.  If you believe that, you're a fool.  A complete and utter fool at that. 

We all have this experience at hand. What we do with it, should remain in the realms of “keep it or leave it”, and not become an endless war zone for anybody’s arguments.

That is the reason why I suggest you stay in your corner of the world standing on facts only, and we ought to stay in our reality without defying your understanding of existence. Which of course doesn’t mean we ought to remain “enemies”.

Actually, it sounds like you don't know what you mean.  Perhaps you should go for counselling.  Have you considered talking with someone?  Perhaps your family doctor?  If you have any friends with school-age children, maybe they can hook you up with one of their kid's guidance counsellors.  You've got issues, pal.   

What I mean by that is... can we just be all kind to each other, beyond belief and ideas and experiences? I would love to see an effort been made on that level. At least I am willing to help it.


If not I would have tried to bring some sense to this whole stupid saga... just once in my life. If it doesn't work... well, I will first evaluate objectively your response to my plead.

Cheers

Cheers yourself.  You're impossible to talk with about this stuff.  Now if you were like any of the couple of premie friends I still have, yes, we could get along. Kinda.  We just wouldn't talk about Maharaji and that sometimes works.  But these forums are all about him and his cult and so no, there's no way you're ever going to "bring some sense" to anything in your confused state.  Like I said, go see a counsellor.  Not necessarily Motherwave (although I understand it's an excellent program, especially if you're a potential world leader) but something. 

 




 Date: 02/11/2004, 11:46:57
 Posted by: JHB
 Original URL: Click here (However, the link may be stale.)
 Subject: Yes, it was ironic wasn't it!
Firstly, I don't think DrLove is Roupell, and I personally am as tired as Roupell claims to be with ex-premies regularly accusing posters of being Roupell, which is why I ban that sort of guessing on my forum, but that's just me

The irony, as you say, is that I wrote a polite, factual reply to correct the mistakes in One-Reality's post, and to point out that I really did live in the London Latvian house for five years. In fact I was doing just as DrLove suggested - communicating in a civil way with premies. So my post got deleted, just as Dr. Love was posting!

I did a count a couple of months ago of how many opening posts on threads on CW were attacks on exes. Then the result was just over 50%. I've done the same just now and the result is still 50% with many of the other threads turning into attacks on exes. If DrLove is serious about reducing conflict, then it is clear who his audience should be, but sadly, DrLove himself actually started several of those threads.

John.




 Date: 02/11/2004, 12:26:12
 Posted by: NikW
 Original URL: Click here (However, the link may be stale.)
 Subject: Re: A reply to Dr. Love What Irony !

Mostly I prefer to avoid the catbox madness so I applaud Jim's fortitude in dissecting Dr Love's ramblings, although I don't accept any of what Dr L has to say as genuine. I'd much prefer to go with what the cult is actually doing than what any of its adherents claim to want. For instance :

If I were you, and that of course I’m not, I would back up with real documentation (links, names and addresses, official documents) to make my statements and messages more credible to anyone who is reading you. Because you might be individually sound, but all together you make people feel like Maharaji is the last person on earth to be trusted. And that in itself is wrong doing. Because if it wasn’t real, they would be more ex-premies than active ones in the practice of Knowledge. Just think how much it hurts to see what you do.

Elan Vital UK has been challenged on exactly this basis.

What I mean by that is... can we just be all kind to each other, beyond belief and ideas and experiences? I would love to see an effort been made on that level. At least I am willing to help it.

Sure Dr L, why don't you ask EV UK what their attitude is to "those who are behind a complaint to the UK Charity Commission" ? This complaint has all the supporting documentation conceivably possible and what has EV's response been - harrassment of individual who has nothing to do with the complaint but who got caught up in EV's fishing operation looking for those concerned so they can be "stopped".

When people's livelihoods are threatened, when legal strategies pioneered by the Scientologists are routinely used, when  unmittigated poison is spewed forth, not at some leader protected by immense wealth but at individuals who are simply exposing what they consider to be wrong, there is no room for a 'truce' and no place for accommodating both the views of followers and ex followers because there is no basis for trust.

Rawat,  his flunkies and the wealthy claque that sustains him have had ample opportunity to come clean, to sort out the legalities, to make good past mistakes. Instead they have shown every intention of continuing with business as usual;  Rawat won't take the slightest bit of responsibility - as he said at Alexandra Palace - "I'm (this is the former Lord of the Universe) not getting into a pissing contest". To which those of us who are offended by a 'message of peace' being used as a cover for venality, abuse of philanthropy and plain old illegality might respond "obviously not, your diaper needs changing as it is".

Nik




 Date: 02/11/2004, 14:45:16
 Posted by: JHB
 Original URL: Click here (However, the link may be stale.)
 Subject: Nik, Can you tell us more?
Nik,

You wrote:

Sure Dr L, why don't you ask EV UK what their attitude is to "those who are behind a complaint to the UK Charity Commission" ? This complaint has all the supporting documentation conceivably possible and what has EV's response been - harrassment of individual who has nothing to do with the complaint but who got caught up in EV's fishing operation looking for those concerned so they can be "stopped".

Is this something you can expand on?

John.




 Date: 02/11/2004, 17:00:04
 Posted by: NikW
 Original URL: Click here (However, the link may be stale.)
 Subject: Re: Nik, Can you tell us more?

The level of internal EV gossip should shield anyone from being directly targetted but with the intensity of feeling that is currently being generated within EV UK I think to say anything specific at this time may put even 'good premies' in some jeopardy.

Hysteria and paranoia make a dangerous mix. Add to that a background of broken dreams and the embarrassment (before Rawat) of EV UK not being able to slosh money around as Rawat demands it should be, (while under Charity Commission scrutiny) and I think some EV insiders may be going down the path trod by Fakiranand when dealing with Pat Halley.

My take on it is, that all those years of meditating and being  "at peace" has been merely as supression of feeling. Some of the old timers are really going to be tested if things don't go their way in the Charity Commission's deliberations. 30 years of hidden rage and frustration is going to have some pretty ugly effects if it ever gets released.

Nik




 Date: 02/11/2004, 18:15:54
 Posted by: Grapevine
 Original URL: Click here (However, the link may be stale.)
 Subject: Charity Commission
The Charity Commission in Britain rejected the bid by Scientology for charity status, yet it granted that status to Elan Vital. Hmmmm. See link for their report on Scientology.



Related link: http://www.charity-commission.gov.uk/registration/pdfs/cosdecsum.pdf



 Date: 02/11/2004, 13:17:07
 Posted by: Cynthia
 Original URL: Click here (However, the link may be stale.)
 Subject: Re: A reply to Dr. Love

"What I mean by that is... can we just be all kind to each other, beyond belief and ideas and experiences? I would love to see an effort been made on that level. At least I am willing to help it."

Basically this how I interpret this statement:

"Let's all put this out of our minds.  Can't we all get along?  Forget the past, okay please?  I promise I'll try to play nice."

Or:

"I wanna  put the past behind us and start fresh with a new beginning and not libel, trash, lie, smear, defame, and ridicule all you ex-premies anymore but I've got a condition:  that you stop talking about my Maharaji in a way I don't like, then I'll be nice to you.  I won't put anymore addresses of exes' employers up online or call you anymore names if you stop making those "bad" pictures and making all that talk about the ONE I LOVE.  Will you all forget what I've ever said about you Ex-premies?  Huh? Will ya, will ya, come on now, pleeese?"

It sounds like a liar or a beggar or both.  The problem is that this person (premies) can't grok that ex-premies are telling the truth and we see the world without Maharaji in our lives -- really not in our lives and understand him better than they do.

It's a childish approach.  And, now being able to view the whole picture, no longer under the influence of Maharaji makes it glaringly obvious that magical thinking about a utopian "world of Maharaji" continues in the minds of even the extra "hip" premies.




 Date: 02/11/2004, 13:34:04
 Posted by: NAR
 Original URL: Click here (However, the link may be stale.)
 Subject: Another reply to Dr. Love .... and yardsticks of truth
Hey Doc,
You make a pretty outrageous claim..... you "claim" you are having an experience of something pretty fantastic.... PROVE IT!

Using YOUR yardstick, that is, of not accepting the "word" of an eyewitness, then I apply the same to YOU. Here is MY statement about your CLAIM to have experienced something special:

"...If I were you, and that of course I’m not, I would back up with real documentation (links, names and addresses, official documents) to make my statements and messages more credible to anyone who is reading you....."

THAT is what I demand that YOU do! Prove it with impartial scientific data provided by a third party totally unrelated to YOU or YOUR cult. If you don't accept the eyewitness accounts of Michael Dettmers, then, as I said, I will not trust YOUR words and claims either. Since it is YOU and the fatboy that are making these outrageous claims about "this experience," I demand that YOU provide proof that doesn't require me to have any faith in you or trust in YOUR WORDS.....

Got it?




 Date: 02/11/2004, 13:45:38
 Posted by: Cynthia
 Original URL: Click here (However, the link may be stale.)
 Subject: Dr. Love responds to Jim!...

That was quick:

JIM I am sadden by your reply. You have no clue who I am. And all you did in your 'reply' is just get more aggressive instead of simply responding nicely. You keep presuming things that aren't about me or what I said.
Marshal supported your attitude and JHB had a little more fairness and lucidity. I only started a few threads of 'anger' sometime ago, because I saw the kind of attacks and non-sense that was going on in your forum. In fact I never came to your forum until a few months ago.
I also want to tell you that I never hacked any of your F7's and never will.
Although I have sometimes the wanting and capacity to do so, my knowledge will stay in my pocket. That isn't what I want to do... I wanted some kindness between human beings who have received a great gift. Now I will remove myself from these kind of talks once and for all. I don't see the need for me to poison my heart with your forums. You stay happy and well... I mean it.

Well, Jim, it looks like you have absolutely not changed enough to satisfy Dr.Love!  Or with enough speed. 

What's the matter with you anyway, Jim?  Don't you get this guy is the Doctor of Love?  He did say "pretty please," after all.  Jeezus Jim!  Dr.Love even admits he didn't hack our forum...wherever did that came from???

Now Dr.Love has pulled the "bat and ball and goin' on home" play.

Cynth


5 Brighter than 1000 suns as seen through night vision goggles
4 As bright as the lights on Maharaji's jet
3 As bright as a 60 watt light bulb
2 As bright as a pile of burning ghi on a swinging arti tray
1 As bright as the inner light as seen by the third eye


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