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The Unlit Match argument
 Posted by: Babaluji
 Date: 01/08/2005, 23:51:50
 Original URL: Click here (However, the link may be stale.)

I find that sometimes when having a discussion with premies about Maharaji and why I left and all the reasons (Jagdeo, Monica, the drinking, the pot smoking, the money, his nasty personality, etc.) the premie will respond with the “unlit match” argument that I or we never understood what it was all about from the very beginning.  Well, I stuck around for about 25 years and I sure thought that I “got it”.

 

But, what I’m more interesting in exploring is the expansion of the “unlit match” argument.  Basically, will current old time hardcore premies now have to scrutinize each and every premie friend they have as a potential “unlit match” if and when that premie becomes an ex-premie.  I suspect that such surprises must be very upsetting.  I mean, what does it feel like when your best premie friend with whom you shared so much satsang and knowing winks and exchanges becomes an ex-premie?  Surely, it can't feel good and one way of heading off the disappointment is to write every one off early on.  And thus, you've got a lot of mistrust in the system.  You know and certainly you must remember - the JUDGING.  Bongos and all the rest.  What an ugly world it is that Maharaji and his premies have in mind for everyone.

 

I have a premie friend who I have not talked to at all since I exited and became an ex-premie for fear that she couldn’t handle it.  She was always a bit on the edge even though she had once been very plugged in and plugged in at the highest of high doing service at the Rez.

 

With the possibility of premies becoming ex-premies is it possible that there exists a certain degree of apprehension and mistrust in the premie community?  And one wonders whether a premie community even exists anymore.  Certainly, I’ve heard Maharaji dismiss friendship as nothing more than a distraction from the true focus (Him and his pocketbook.)  While I may not know what’s happening anymore since I left in 1998, but I think the emphasis is on videos and Dish TV Pay TV.  Back in the mid to late 90’s there was a big push for nice community halls where videos could be shown.  But, I think that’s been dismantled for the most part.  And, it was very expensive – I do know that.  Our community was hard-pressed to come up with the monthly nut on the hall rental and the video subscription and everything else.  With Dish TV you can stay at home and watch Maharaji blab on without ever meeting anyone in the community.

 

Does anyone know what it’s like in the Weird Whirled of Knowledge these days?




Re: The Unlit Match argument
 Posted by: Will
 Date: 01/10/2005, 08:57:59
 Original URL: Click here (However, the link may be stale.)

I find this topic very interesting, namely -  what are current long-time premies thinking these days?

I wanted to know the answer to this question so I thought about all my premie friends and decided that most of them would not be willing and able to answer my questions fully.  But there was one possibility, a former ashram mate of mine.

We talked on the phone and emailed at length.  It took a long time, several days and several communications.  But I finally found out the basic difference between us.   The difference between premies and ex-premies is very subtle.

My premie friend still believes that there is something to discover within through the practice of Knowledge, and that people who don't have Knowledge are missing an "inner understanding" that he enjoys through Knowledge.   I, in contrast, do not believe that I have something that other non-premie people do not have, and I believe that what we can discover or understand about ourselves is not dependent on Knowledge or even particularly helped by practicing Knowledge. 

The difference is hard to grasp.  My friend said many other things that were of no help to me, such as saying that "I know who I am and other people do not know who they really are."  This is too vague for me.  He also said that in the 70's we misunderstood satchitanand, but again what kind of misunderstanding he was talking about I could not grasp.  He could not adequately describe to me the difference between enlightenement and "inner peace."  I think these two concepts must remain confused in order for a premie to continue to practice Knowledge. 

I myself can no longer emotionally tolerate the kind of mental outlook that I use to hold to as a premie, namely that there is some sort of "higher" state of mind that I need to discover by meditation.  I believe that current long-time premies think in a way that is actually very close to my way of thinking, namely that our fulfillment comes from acceptance of the reality of the here and now and that there is no perfect state to grasp for.  We share the human wish to simply open ourselves to beauty and truth.   The difference is that premies approach beauty and truth through the framework that Rawat presents, whereas I see this framework as unnecessary and even invalid. 

Continuing to perceive the framework of Knowledge as the legitimate path to inner peace must be difficult to premies.  They must be confronted with the obvious fact that they are not enlightened or even more peaceful than other people generally.  The must be confronted with the fact that so many former premies discount the validity of Rawat and the path of Knowledge.  

Still, beauty does exist.  And truth does exist.  And we can align ourselves with these things as far as we are willing and able to do so.   The problem with Knowledge is that it is far too narrow to fit the truth.  The "Unlit Match" speech by Rawat reveals his narrowness in blazing light.  Knowledge suffers the inadequacies and failures of all religions.  I find that premies are narrow people following a narrow path, just as all the other religious people are doing on their respective paths.  The result is a shallow and narrow peace, not the universality of truth.

 




Re: The Unlit Match argument...
 Posted by: Cynthia
 Date: 01/10/2005, 09:36:32
 Original URL: Click here (However, the link may be stale.)

Hi Babaluji,

I'm sitting here looking at a CD my hubby plays a lot called "Cuban Originals," by Dezi Arnaz, and the best cuts are "Babalu," "Holiday in Havana" and "Cuban Pete."  Dance and sing-along music galore!  "Boom-chicky- boom, Boom-chicky-boom, Boom-chicky-boom."  I've got a feeling that's not your music though. 

You brought up an important topic and I'm interested to hear from others about this.

I find that sometimes when having a discussion with premies about Maharaji and why I left and all the reasons (Jagdeo, Monica, the drinking, the pot smoking, the money, his nasty personality, etc.) the premie will respond with the “unlit match” argument that I or we never understood what it was all about from the very beginning.  Well, I stuck around for about 25 years and I sure thought that I “got it”.

Do these premies actually say "unlit match?"  Or do they just say, "oh those ex-premies never got it.?"  Both?  I don't have any contact with premies anymore so I'm curious.

First of all, anyone who stuck around for 25 years definitely got it unless they were braindead to begin with, and you most definitely are not brain-dead.  What amazes me the most about all of this is Rawat's attempt to even further mind-f**k people, even after they leave.  Oh, it's okay if premies leave and not say anything but, rue the day,  if you do say something, so just watch out.  Then you're a hate group member.  Moi?  It is equally disturbing and perplexing. There's no word that comes to mind at the moment to describe the gall of that except, maybe, gobsmacked.

Basically, will current old time hardcore premies now have to scrutinize each and every premie friend they have as a potential “unlit match” if and when that premie becomes an ex-premie. when that premie becomes an ex-premie.  I suspect that such surprises must be very upsetting.  I mean, what does it feel like when your best premie friend with whom you shared so much satsang and knowing winks and exchanges becomes an ex-premie?  Surely, it can't feel good and one way of heading off the disappointment is to write every one off early on.  And thus, you've got a lot of mistrust in the system.  You know and certainly you must remember - the JUDGING.  Bongos and all the rest.  What an ugly world it is that Maharaji and his premies have in mind for everyone."

There's got to be an enormous, unprecedented amount of paranoia.  The cult now has premies believing (and it's another part of the mind-control) that ex-premies really are an organized hate-group.  How does one argue with that?  On a person-to-person basis it must be so difficult to square the circle of someone who has felt like family for decades and now is not only "away" but, labeled as worse than bad, but evil, someone to be shunned and sued and arrested???  That's extremism.

Bongos.  In some way, each of us was a bongo (I mean, really) but to have created an untouchable class of devotees, many of whom I remember being so unstable in some major way or another is just inhumane and callous.  Everyone knew a bongo.  I can't stand that word.  Did anyone ever try to reach out to these "bongos," or were they someone for us to laugh at, condescend to, and, of course, at programs, keep away from Maharaji?  (I'll insert here that there, indeed, were people who came along that were dangerous to themselves and others, including Maharaji.)  I never was involved in security at programs so I don't know much about this subject and how "bongos" were dealt with.  It's worth talking about, and calling people bongos, well, that makes me feel sad. 

With the possibility of premies becoming ex-premies is it possible that there exists a certain degree of apprehension and mistrust in the premie community?  And one wonders whether a premie community even exists anymore. 

There has got to be so much paranoia. Look at the upcoming program in LA.  There's no information online, when you would think that publishing info online would be a major goal in this day and age.  It's distrust and paranoia because Rawat and EV have premies convinced of all of their so-called "harassment" allegations against ex-premies.  SmartCards!  How can the cult even trust someone with a Smartcard?  (Do they even issue a "bongo" a SnartCard?

Anyone could become an ex-premie at any time and still have a valid card.  Rawat's good at pitting people against each other. Paranoia and distrust.  Apples don't fall far from trees.  I think there always was a lot of distrust under the surface in the past -- we were, after all, strangers thrust together -- who essentially, almost automatically lived together as family.  I think we resolved any distrust issues through the use of "satsang" giving and lots of rationalization. "It's Lila."  "Go with the flow."

You know, as much as we are so far from being a group, but we are definitely bonded to each other because of our common experience, having been in that creepy cult.  Even on the off-topic forum, I see that sometimes we argue like siblings.  It's kind of unique.  Is it??  I don't know.  I think of it as a way of rediscovering ourselves as time goes on, as we filter out the utter shit that Maharaji filled our minds and hearts with.  Not for everyone, I suppose.  I really love it, too.  Makes me feel loved and more secure in myself as a whole person.  No one really can understand us as we can understand each other and "us" as far as we are an "us," after all.

Just a bunch of thoughts...

Cynth

I don't know what's going on with the font size... 

 




The unlit match
 Posted by: Mike Finch
 Date: 01/10/2005, 11:04:40
 Original URL: Click here (However, the link may be stale.)
I am clearly an unlit match. Yet I gave Knowledge to many people as an instructor, with Maharaji's blessing, as well other 'delicate' (shall we say) assignments directly on his behalf and with his agya.

Does this mean that all the premies now practising, who I gave K to, are unlit matches too? Or is M's grace so powerful that his grace can pass through an unlit match instructor to create a lit match premie?

I have recently been having an email thread with a premie family to whom I gave K, and who are freaked out that I am now an ex. Should I email them to say that unfortunately as a consequence they are in fact unlit matches themselves, and never 'really' got K?

Since he is all-knowing, he must have known at the time that I was an unlit match. And it is even stranger - I did not actually apply to be an instructor, he asked me to be one; and he even kept me on after all the others had been suspended (1990/91).

Is this his unfathomable lila ?

Asking humbly for guidance and clarity on this issue...

-- Mike




Re: The unlit match
 Posted by: lesley
 Date: 01/10/2005, 13:12:06
 Original URL: Click here (However, the link may be stale.)
Mike, that knowledge was a seed, and since the perfect living lord considered us parrots, you have to wonder whether we were supposed to eat it or plant it.

But what does that seed grow into once down the gullible gullet? I can indeed answer this question. It grows into a vine. A vine that binds. It’s leaves are confusing lies and it’s fruit hypocrisy.

Are these people doomed to develop a rapid infestation of fact fungus, become damp squibs of unlit matches, or go full term and produce an odourous crop of poisonous hypocrisy, along with a bad infestation of integrity attacking mites.

It is an interesting question. I think that it comes down to asking a question of you. Did you select these people, or did you just come in to an already selected group and plant seeds. I guess I must also ask if you noticed any matchboxes lying around.

Of course there is a question to ask of them. Do they believe that because they received their special K from someone who was handpicked on purpose by the perfect living lord that they are particularly blessed?




Re: The unlit match
 Posted by: jonx
 Date: 01/10/2005, 17:13:27
 Original URL: Click here (However, the link may be stale.)

Mike

With all due respect, you sound like you are getting more confused with each passing day. That said, I applaude your efforts to try and sort it out. It's just kinda painful to watch mate. Not sure why you would burden that family with your deliberations though.

Jonx




If he's so confused, why don't you help him out, Jonx?
 Posted by: Jim
 Date: 01/10/2005, 18:02:46
 Original URL: Click here (However, the link may be stale.)

If it's so painful to watch Mike in his confusion, Jonx, and if you sincerely "applaude' [sic] his efforts, why not give him a hand and answer some of his questions?

For starters, Mike assumes that he's an unlit match, i.e. someone who never really "got it":

I am clearly an unlit match.

Do you agree?  Please explain your thinking, one way or the other.

He then explains that he

... gave Knowledge to many people as an instructor, with Maharaji's blessing, as well other 'delicate' (shall we say) assignments directly on his behalf and with his agya.

and asks:

Does this mean that all the premies now practising, who I gave K to, are unlit matches too? Or is M's grace so powerful that his grace can pass through an unlit match instructor to create a lit match premie?

Can you answer that, Jonx?  Again, what do you think and why?

Mike then asks for some practical help:

I have recently been having an email thread with a premie family to whom I gave K, and who are freaked out that I am now an ex. Should I email them to say that unfortunately as a consequence they are in fact unlit matches themselves, and never 'really' got K?

You talk about Mike "burdening" the family but that's not really fair, is it, seeing as they seem to be the ones who are "freaked out" and asking him for some answers?  What should he tell them, Jonx? 

Then Mike asks another rather interesting question:

Since he is all-knowing, he must have known at the time that I was an unlit match. And it is even stranger - I did not actually apply to be an instructor, he asked me to be one; and he even kept me on after all the others had been suspended (1990/91).

Is this his unfathomable lila ?

What's your answer to that, my good friend?  And isn't it wonderful that we're all here for each other like this?

 




And can I use you as my role model?
 Posted by: jonx
 Date: 01/11/2005, 15:12:27
 Original URL: Click here (However, the link may be stale.)

...isn't it wonderful that we're all here for each other like this?

That's rich Jim; you chiding me. Hillarious!




No, unlike Rawat I'm VERY imperfect
 Posted by: Jim
 Date: 01/11/2005, 15:23:32
 Original URL: Click here (However, the link may be stale.)

First, Jonx, I wonder why you say I'm "chiding" you?  If you recall, you chimed in, supposedly sympathizing with Mike for his confusion but, at the same time, criticizing him for spreading that confusion to this family he's been corresponding with.  I simply took you at face value and asked you to elaborate. 

So what?  You were just kidding?  You don't really give a damn about Mike's confusion, or the family's for that matter?  It's all a joke? 

Why not drop the ad hominem digressive attacks and get back on track, Jack?  Mike and I both have asked you to answer my questions.  If you can't do so -- perhaps because you, Jonx, have your own confusion! -- please say so.  Maybe we can all work this out together.

As for "role model"?  Whatever gave you that idea?

 

 




That's no excuse for your behaviour
 Posted by: jonx
 Date: 01/11/2005, 15:40:57
 Original URL: Click here (However, the link may be stale.)

You don't really give a damn about Mike's confusion, or the family's for that matter?

Your righteous indignation that I may not be genuinely sympathetic to Mike is of course nothing more than posturing on your part Jim. Are you holding your imperfect little self up as a paradigm of compassion?




If you're sincere, prove it
 Posted by: Jim
 Date: 01/11/2005, 15:52:56
 Original URL: Click here (However, the link may be stale.)

Jonx,

If you really think Mike's all confused about this "unlit match" stuff, why don't you help him sort it out?  That's not so much to ask, is it?  Otherwise, it does look like you're just teasing him or something, God forbid!




I have nothing to prove to you
 Posted by: jonx
 Date: 01/11/2005, 16:03:12
 Original URL: Click here (However, the link may be stale.)

If you really think Mike's all confused about this "unlit match" stuff, why don't you help him sort it out?

...said the spider to the fly.

Do I look like an idiot? Sincerity here on the part of premies is only rewarded with abuse.




What about my question to you below re; fear
 Posted by: jonx
 Date: 01/11/2005, 16:06:04
 Original URL: Click here (However, the link may be stale.)

Would you like to expound upon why this is different?




Re: What about my question to you below re; fear
 Posted by: Jim
 Date: 01/11/2005, 16:18:11
 Original URL: Click here (However, the link may be stale.)

Would you like to expound upon why this is different?

Actually, Jonx, your admission above that you're not stupid enough to be sincere here makes me wonder why I should answer you at all.  Hm?





Re: What about my question to you below re; fear
 Posted by: jonx
 Date: 01/12/2005, 10:29:56
 Original URL: Click here (However, the link may be stale.)

That's okay Jim. Introspection does take some sincerity, and I wouldn't expect enough from you in that area to make it a worthwhile read.




That really hurt my feelings ......
 Posted by: Jim
 Date: 01/12/2005, 14:20:50
 Original URL: Click here (However, the link may be stale.)
God, Jonx, that was merciless!



A couple of points, Jonx...
 Posted by: Mike Finch
 Date: 01/11/2005, 01:51:21
 Original URL: Click here (However, the link may be stale.)
Thanks, Jonx, for your kind words.

A couple of points:

you sound like you are getting more confused with each passing day

I cannot answer for how I sound to you, Jonx, but I think I am getting very much clearer and less confused, particularly as regards Maharaji and my involvement with him for 30+ years.

Not sure why you would burden that family with your deliberations though

Actually they emailed me first, and I answered their questions in as respectful and loving a manner as I could. Are you suggesting I should have simply ignored their email ?

BTW, I am very much looking forward to reading your answers to Jim's excellent questions in his post to you immediately above this one.

-- Mike




Re: A couple of points, Jonx...
 Posted by: jonx
 Date: 01/11/2005, 15:27:13
 Original URL: Click here (However, the link may be stale.)

I cannot answer for how I sound to you, Jonx...

No you can't. You do sound confused Mike. Really... unlit match, grace being powerful enough to, all-knowing... sheesh!

...but I think I am getting very much clearer and less confused, particularly as regards Maharaji and my involvement with him for 30+ years.

If you are truly happier, good on you. If the above is representative of your personal cosmology as a premie then I'm not surprised you consider yourself clearer.

Actually they emailed me first, and I answered their questions in as respectful and loving a manner as I could.

So you're harmless after all. Just explaining to them in good faith your journey... for their benefit of course.

I am very much looking forward to reading your answers to Jim's excellent questions in his post to you immediately above this one.

Done.




Jonx! What the hell you talkin', boy?!
 Posted by: Jim
 Date: 01/11/2005, 15:35:43
 Original URL: Click here (However, the link may be stale.)

I am very much looking forward to reading your answers to Jim's excellent questions in his post to you immediately above this one.

Done.

You didn't answer me at all.  You just made some lame comment about role models. 

Come now, Jonx, a little honesty, please!





Why do you stay anonymous?
 Posted by: Mike Finch
 Date: 01/12/2005, 02:12:23
 Original URL: Click here (However, the link may be stale.)
Jonx, you write: unlit match, grace being powerful enough to, all-knowing...If the above is representative of your personal cosmology as a premie then I'm not surprised you consider yourself clearer. which I assume is saying that I never really understood what Maharaji was all about, and that Knowledge being all about M's grace was a misunderstanding on my part.

Well Jonx, if you are who I think you are, you were not around during the seventies, not as an active premie, like you are now with your current wonderful service. You only came in during the tail-end of the era when M's grace was openly talked about, and was considered the source of all. But you and I both know well that even today premies think that way privately. Of course, part of your job is to keep the public relations spin going, that M is just an 'inspirational speaker' etc, which we both know is not the whole truth by any means.

I have no wish to persuade you of anything. You are an intelligent person, and I have always liked you and had great respect for you. I believe that you understand very well what you are doing, and you certainly have the capacity to understand and answer Jim's questions (your response 'Done' as if you have done that is disingenuous) - but unfortunately you have put your sharp wits, your intelligence, and your 'get-it-done' attitude that we all admired so much at W...y Villas (see, I am respecting your incognito) at the service of a tacky personality cult.

While the efficiency with which I see you perform your current service is nothing less than what I would expect, why do you put your formidable talents to such waste? Actually, don't bother to answer - I know the answer, both in your specific case, and in the general case (I did the same for 30+ years, so I can't point the finger).

By the way, why do you keep anonymous? You are well protected, your real name is known elsewhere, think how wonderfully you would be performing the task your Master gave you if you posted here under your real name!

Take care

-- Mike




Properties of a lit match
 Posted by: sue
 Date: 01/10/2005, 21:14:05
 Original URL: Click here (However, the link may be stale.)

Potential if not inevitable burn out.

 

Before Xmas a premie I know took her life.  This is a very sad event especially for some people I am very close to, more than for myself.

 

She had been to Amaroo (the last time M attended) and had attended prior events there spending a lot of time in the place where they all drink.  This was not a good thing for her as she already had a substance abuse problem. 

 

What does knowledge do for people with mental disabilities or psychosis?  Does it help or indeed increase the psychosis?  When one tried to communicate with this person that she was obviously in trouble she would respond with satsang.  How can you help someone who thinks they are already saved?

 

No premie attended her funeral.

 

My deduction – knowledge doesn’t work.  Premies tell me it works for them but I believe Maharaji should modify his advertising to “knowledge works for some people – around 1/3 of the people who receive it seem to gain some benefit”.  It would be closer to the truth!

 

I know in one satsang he said if you have mental problems you see a psychiatrist – but if you want peace you take this knowledge.  Does not the psychotic person want peace?  This is a very misleading statement and I wonder if M cared at all about this person or even knew of her existence. 

 

I don't write this to be disrespectful to her but am a little angry that she got no good advice.




Re: Properties of a lit match
 Posted by: Toby
 Date: 01/10/2005, 22:24:58
 Original URL: Click here (However, the link may be stale.)
Isn't it a bit similar to the premie i know, who sticks around for 30 years and thinks his tinnitus is the divine music?Nobody tells him, at least not Rawat, that he might be wrong.As long as he thinks it "benefits" him and he is "active"(paying), why should anybody bother? Thus is the quality of this "master". It is a sad story of destroyed social attitudes and the direct responsibilty of Rawat.

Toby




"Knowledge doesn't work"
 Posted by: JHB
 Date: 01/11/2005, 01:20:50
 Original URL: Click here (However, the link may be stale.)
Sue,

Welcome to the forum, although the event that prompted your post is indeed sad. By instilling the belief that Knowledge is the only answer to our existential problems, Rawat is guilty of closing the door to other help that is available, including the help from non-premie friends and family, as well as medical help if that is necessary. And now, by spreading the lie that ex-premies are a hate group, Elan Vital are making it more difficult for unhappy premies to reject Rawat and find some help here.

As I've said before, anyone who is happy following Rawat is welcome to do so, but those who are unhappy should look at the information on ex-premie.org, and consider whether their alliegance to Rawat is justified.

John.




Re: The Unlit Match argument
 Posted by: Premie response
 Date: 01/11/2005, 01:34:36
 Original URL: Click here (However, the link may be stale.)
Babalugi asks - “Does anyone know what it’s like in the Weird Whirled of Knowledge these days?”

I know. I’ve had Knowledge for more than 30 years and have been involved with DLM/EV, gone to Amaroo and even gone to the odd training.What’s the world of Knowledge like these days, same as it’s been for the last 30 years.There are those people who received Knowledge and make the effort to practice it and benefit from it and as a consequence have respect for Knowledge and Maharaji; and there are those people who decide not to practice, think it’s irrelevant and couldn’t care less about Maharaji.

And what about people who practice for years and then become anti?I consider them the same as people who end any relationship/activity and then spend years bagging their former partner/activity.If it was so bad, why give it another moment’s thought, surely your fabulous new life is totally absorbing and satisfying.Some exes claim they post as a cathartic experience or as a warning to others.I would suggest that there is a limit to dwelling on old injuries and a real risk of hypochondria.

Babalugi gives “Jagdeo, Monica, the drinking, the pot smoking, the money, his nasty personality, etc“ as reasons why they stopped practising.It hasn’t stopped me.Why?Because knowing a pedophile isn’t a slur on your character (I knew him as well). nor is having an open marriage, drinking, smoking pot or being rich.The question I ask is “How has Maharaji treated me, personally?”And my answer, for the last 30 years, is “With love and respect”.Nasty personality?I love my partner but I am in no doubt that my nastiest behaviour has been reserved for them.Does that necessitate the end of the relationship?

Knowledge isn’t about others, it’s about you.It’s not about what other people say, it’s about what you have experienced. Knowledge isn’t a spectator sport and never has been, it is only about what practising the techniques does for you, not your neighbour, not your husband, you.

As for the “unlit match” analogy.Most posters seem to have missed the point.Maharaji was simply stating the obvious, in any endeavour, not matter how worthy, there must always be people who don’t get it.And even more obvious, in any endeavour, no matter how worthy, there will always be people who give up.How else can you explain the huge numbers of people who would like to give up (put your own vice in here) but can never quite get it together.Or who do (put your own virtue here) and then stop.

Babalugi asks- “With the possibility of premies becoming ex-premies is it possible that there exists a certain degree of apprehension and mistrust in the premie community?”

Not in the slightest.Knowledge has only ever been a personal experience.When I received Knowledge 95% of my friends and family didn’t, it didn’t stop me from taking Knowledge and has never bothered me since.The drop out rate for long termers isn't great and if you take Neville Ackland and John MacGregor as examples, not very successful.Am I concerned that you have stopped practicing Knowledge and now hate Maharaji?Not in the slightest.You are repsonsible for your life and choices, not me.I practice Knowledge for the effect it has on me.I enjoy being fit, I enjoy my hobbies, I enjoy my life, I don’t care two hoots what other people are doing.

Hope this is of value




Re: The Unlit Match argument
 Posted by: NikW
 Date: 01/11/2005, 02:50:31
 Original URL: Click here (However, the link may be stale.)

 >I don’t care two hoots what other people are doing<

Is that where 30 years of following Rawat has brought you ?

What you do, what Rawat does, what the whole TPRF/EV promo machine does - affects the rest of the world. You, Rawat and the 'Knowledge' selilng orgs are pushing a set of ideals and values - like any other ideology the one that  you promote is open to challenge.

 If you want to understand (not something common in premies) what might motivate some of us to keep up a challenge to Rawatism - read Sue's post below - read EV's FAQs where the mental health of Rawat's critics is used to defend EV - then look at the type of tactics used by Scientology and its obsession with denying the reality of psychological distress. 

 Just because premies 'don't care' - doesn't mean that others don't. Rawat has created a cult of egocentricity and selfishness - like guru, like follower.




Re: The Unlit Match argument
 Posted by: Cynthia
 Date: 01/11/2005, 05:26:02
 Original URL: Click here (However, the link may be stale.)
Because knowing a pedophile isn’t a slur on your character (I knew him as well).

There's a huge difference between knowing Jagdeo as you and others did, and having total control over him because he was a Mahatma.  Maharaji was his boss and was responsible for him because M was the head of DLM. 

As for the “unlit match” analogy. Most posters seem to have missed the point. Maharaji was simply stating the obvious, in any endeavour, not matter how worthy, there must always be people who don’t get it. And even more obvious, in any endeavour, no matter how worthy, there will always be people who give up. How else can you explain the huge numbers of people who would like to give up (put your own vice in here) but can never quite get it together. Or who do (put your own virtue here) and then stop.

So, now I've missed the point.  What part of Maharaji's agya didn't I understand?  I faithfully practiced satsang (went every night), did service (hardly ever had a gap and was assigned service by the community coordinator from the time  was an aspirant) and I usually meditated more than Maharaji prescribed.  I never broke the ashram rules.  Not once. 

I worshipped Maharaji, did everything in my power to surrender to him, I kissed his feet, went to see him before I got K and certainly after.  I gave up my life for him and I moved into the ashram as he asked of all available premies at the time. 

What did I miss?

Am I concerned that you have stopped practicing Knowledge and now hate Maharaji?

I don't hate Maharaji.  Premies and Maharaji's Elan Vital website say that I hate him, but I don't.

 

 

 

 




Re: The Unlit Match argument
 Posted by: OTS
 Date: 01/11/2005, 06:53:40
 Original URL: Click here (However, the link may be stale.)

If it [practicing for years] was so bad, why give it another moment’s thought, surely your fabulous new life is totally absorbing and satisfying.

Yeah, sure.  Well, Mr. Big Shot, it isn't!  I am sorry that you don't give a crap about anything or anyone else in this world.  Me included.  You're so sure about my life, are you?  Did you send your check into Maharaji's 501(3)(c) organization for the Tsumani Relief effort so his organization can take its 50% cut in "expenses" before sending the other 50% on to a real charity doing works on the ground in South Asia?  Like the latest Press Release indicates, not a subjee has yet been cooked by the Delhi Ashram premies to feed anyone with the Hundred Grand collected.  Are there any victims in Delhi?  No.  How will they get to the southern end of the country?  Bullock cart?  They're still studying the situation.  Meanshile, a half million peole are dead.  Will you be flying to LA next week for the event to hear M remind you to breath?  Will you be staying in a hotel?  Going out to West Hollywood for dinner?  Or helicoptering in from Malibu?  Surely you must be a little egomaniacal like your guru, no?  Surely you know everything in the world there is to know in that you practice Knowledge.  Surely you are all-knowing, now that you've practiced Knowledge for 30 years.  Surely you're so full of crap.    I practiced devotedly for 30 years and all I got was a back row seat and a lousy $100 EVEN IN YOUR DARKEST HOUR I WILL NOT ABANDON YOU watch.  My hearing is going as is my sight.  But my ear for bullcrap remains atuned.  Don' assume so much.  Your pompous attitude is what I used to have.  In fact, all my friends who weren't premies have now abandoned me because of it.  And now that I'm "anti," well, you and all premies I know have shunned me and abandoned me.  That's okay because  surely [my] fabulous new life is totally absorbing and satisfying. Wrong.  If you're so satisfied, why do you feel the need to come here and instruct us on how to live.




Re: The Unlit Match argument
 Posted by: Cynthia
 Date: 01/11/2005, 07:28:20
 Original URL: Click here (However, the link may be stale.)

OTS,

I'm so sorry to hear about your eyesight and hearing -- and everything else, too.  I was going to tell this person, a premie responder, that along with everything else I gave up for Maharaji, I also gave up a child in my womb, in large part because Charanand's advice.  Is Charanand also an unlit match????  How much more can a person give to Rawat?  Premies have told me I am a baby killer because of it.  So much for who is hateful and who is loving. 

So here's a premie responder telling us why we are haters, barking dogs, and unlit matches.

Some nerve. 

Please take care of yourself,

Cynthia




Re: The Unlit Match argument
 Posted by: Jonathan
 Date: 01/11/2005, 07:18:44
 Original URL: Click here (However, the link may be stale.)

What’s the world of Knowledge like these days, same as it’s been for the last 30 years.

I had to laugh when I read your quote, PR. You're right that things haven't changed. Here is why: thirty years ago, the 1970's documentary "Lord of the Universe" chronicled the events surrounding the Houston Astrodome fiasco, during which a young Maharaji promised the world a lasting peace, harmony, and a rollicking good time. Not much has changed since the filming of the documentary.

One of the most telling scenes, then and now, was at the airport prior to the Astrodome. When Maharaji landed in Houston, his handlers adorned him with flower garlands. After a brief speech that would make any Toastmaster cringe, the flower garlands were pulled apart and doled out to pleading hands of Maharaji's followers.

Then, the premies with flowers held them close to their nostrils, gleefully sniffing in their master's lingering neck sweat. Meanwhile, the unlucky premies who had not received a flower bellowed and cried amidst the ambivalent flower-sniffers' covert smiles to each other.

So, back to your comment that the "world of Knowledge" is the "same as its been for the last 30 years" (sic), you're right! In today's "Events with Maharaji," followers still worship your master's feet (literally and figuratively).

Granted, some things have changed. For example, in today's events, during the trance-inducing musical performances, dancing in the aisles is strictly forbidden. Violators are quickly swarmed and whisked away by security officers using state-of-the-art surveillance equipment.

But, overall, today's events recall the same behaviors captured in the "Lord of the Universe" documentary. For example, Maharaji is constantly surrounded by handlers (who, incidentally, make convenient scapegoats for Maharaji). One thing is certain, Maharaji behaves in exactly the same way as he did thirty years ago, namely, by constantly trying to re-invent himself to sell his message to new audiences. Thirty years ago he was a "prophet." Later, he became a "teacher." Now, he is a "successful businessman." What will he be tomorrow? The answer is best left to the wind, PR.

More importantly, Maharaji still speaks in completely non-sensical terms that would make any Hollywood continuity editor blush. Between the lectures(?), followers do not discuss Maharaji's message because, simply put, his message amounts to nothing more than heaping doses of tautology upon tautology. Nowadays, the subject is oftentimes a plant that grows in the desert, or a pilot that knows nothing about engines. What substantive issues are there for Maharaji's followers to discuss and ponder?

Maharaji's current message is no different than his message thirty years ago.  Sure, the packaging might be different. But, at its core, the thread remains the same: when the master barks, the obedient dogs had better come running.

Jonathan




Very revealing
 Posted by: Will
 Date: 01/11/2005, 07:30:07
 Original URL: Click here (However, the link may be stale.)

Your post probably cannot be used to criticize you over much since it is impossible to judge a person from such little information.  But what your post does reveal is a very unworthy attitude.  I'm not sure you are really as narrow-minded and downright stupid as your post indicates.

Why do I say stupid?  Because only an unintelligent person would defend Rawat's alleged nasty behavior in the way that you did, by saying that even the nastiest behavior is no reason to end a relationship.  You've ended up admitting the point in question, even condoning it, without seeming to realize what you are doing.  Stupid.

Why do I say narrow-minded?  Well, all premies are narrow-minded because they are willing to exclusively follow a path that involves Rawat as the only authority figure and the four techniques as the defined proper way for inner exploration.  But the inner realities and the sources of beauty and truth can never be so narrowly defined.  You, as an example of a premie, have demonstrated and personified this narrow-minded quality in blazing light.  All you care about is what you experience from practicing those four techniques.  Period.  You admit it freely, even proudly, and have no idea what kind of impression you are making on reasonable people who don't share you own narrow-mindedness.

But, what is also interesting is what you do NOT reaveal.  Your name and what it is that you experience with the four techniques.  You don't really answer the original questions except in the vaguest terms possible, that you like it.  Well, if you like it, great.  But that doesn't explain anything to us.  So, who are you and what do you experience?  If you are so satisfied and so proud, why not proclaim it loudly and clearly so that we can all understand.  The fact is that we are ex-premies, and we already know what it is that premies experience.  And we already know why they stay anonymous and quiet and don't really share their inner wisdom.  Because it is mostly struggle, being a premie.  Mostly struggle to live up to the ideal that has been imposed upon you.  Enjoy each and every breath with great gratitude for being alive!  Is that what you experience?  Don't bother to answer because I know the answer already. 

Maharaji is living in a dream world.  And so are you.  And you deserve each other.  And it would be easy to just walk and move on and forget the whole thing.  But it's so sad.  Somebody needs to fight it.   Rawat is currently in a campaign to make himself appear legitimate.  He will not succeed because he is patently and obviously illegitimate and everybody can see that clearly except for a few fools like you.  And you, who try to help him legitimize himself, can do no more than stubbornly adhere to your own cultish belief system, which is obvious everytime you open your mouth about your Master and his perfect Knowledge.

See link for the blatant efforts to make Rawat appear legitimate, (by booking him at Harvard and U.N. buildings and requesting that mayors of cities give him awards and contacting certain obscure magazines to print fraudulent "interviews.")  As long as Rawat continues to perpetrate his dream world, there will be people who will fight him.   Get used to it.

And by the way, good luck with getting all your friends to listen to the Keys and join you in your cult.  Because that's what your Master wants you to do this year.  The Keys are going to bring peace to so many people in 2005.  Oh, but that's right, you don't care about all those other people.

At the link below, scroll down to Richard Cooper and "enhancing Maharaji's legitimacy."





Related link: http://www.materialsresource.org/Materials/CNA-letter-October-04.pdf
Modified by Will at Tue, Jan 11, 2005, 11:16:04



Excellent words, Will -- everybody!...
 Posted by: Cynthia
 Date: 01/11/2005, 07:42:54
 Original URL: Click here (However, the link may be stale.)

Good newsletter, too.  Amazing, isn't it, that Rawat plagarizes Shakespeare?  Before long, premies will be believng that Rawat came up with the actors/players/stage thingy.

LOL!

Cynthia

 




What a "looser"...
 Posted by: gerry
 Date: 01/11/2005, 14:03:06
 Original URL: Click here (However, the link may be stale.)
"I love my partner but I am in no doubt that my nastiest behaviour has been reserved for them."

Can you believe this guy actually said this, and probably acts this way? (Just like Maharaji?) he has this nasty side he reserves for the people closest to him? How bizarre. I'll bet that's a really fine relationship. NOT

NO MORAL COMPASS--ANYTHING GOES IN THE WHIRLED OF NOLLIGE...




Is this Lit Match burning out ?
 Posted by: Lexy
 Date: 01/11/2005, 15:55:25
 Original URL: Click here (However, the link may be stale.)

"I love my partner but I am in no doubt that my nastiest behaviour has been reserved for them."

Quite right Gerry. That line just smacked me in the face. It was said so casually as if they really believed that this kind of behaviour was perfectly acceptable.  

So this premie's response to not being able to lose their mind in light and love is to be especially nasty to their partner.

My response to Premie Response's partner..........leave him/her ! YUK !!




Are you saying that Rawat's marriage is "open"?
 Posted by: Jim
 Date: 01/11/2005, 12:37:27
 Original URL: Click here (However, the link may be stale.)

Babalugi gives “Jagdeo, Monica, the drinking, the pot smoking, the money, his nasty personality, etc“ as reasons why they stopped practising. It hasn’t stopped me. Why? Because knowing a pedophile isn’t a slur on your character (I knew him as well). nor is having an open marriage, drinking, smoking pot or being rich.

Are you saying that Rawat's affair with Monica and miscellaneous sexual experiences with other women over the years has been a matter of open, respectful mutual agreement between him and Marolyn? 

I understand quite the opposite. 




Re: Answers
 Posted by: NikW
 Date: 01/12/2005, 03:05:34
 Original URL: Click here (However, the link may be stale.)

>Yes, that’s right NikW. I don’t care two hoots what you’re doing.<

I'm puzzled why you would even say that - I have no expectation that you would care about what I as an individual do. The point that you miss is that I (and many other human beings) do care about things that go on outside of our lives - and this seems to be something that premies can not do unless screened through the lens of Rawat and and Knowledge.

It does concern me how Rawat behaves, it does concern me how EV and the other organisations operate - because these things have an effect on the wider world and in my view that effect is harmful.

I do have a question: Why have premies allowed allowed themselves to become so self centred, self regarding and uncaring ?




That's it?
 Posted by: Cynthia
 Date: 01/12/2005, 03:51:36
 Original URL: Click here (However, the link may be stale.)

You call those answers? 

Oh well.




Who are you trying to fool?
 Posted by: Will
 Date: 01/12/2005, 07:33:22
 Original URL: Click here (However, the link may be stale.)

Dear Premie,

I don't think that anybody really believes you when you adamantly claim to not care about what other people are doing, (which seems to be the main point that you are trying to make here).  First, you are phrasing this proclamation in a vague way - what level of uncaring are you talking about?   But secondly, and more importantly, human beings DO care about what other people are doing and thinking.  It's human nature, and we all know it, no matter how much we or anybody else might say that they don't care.  If a child smiles at you, you will be affected.  If somebody calls you stupid, you will be affected.  Even if you try to harden your heart or toughen your skin.  By the way, sorry I called you stupid, but I did say that you probably aren't as stupid as you appear to be, so that was kinda nice of me.

When you are in a cult, you have do deal with those pesky other people and their negative view of your cult.  It comes with the territory.  There is absolutely no way around it.  You know that.  That is why you have toughened your skin and hardened your heart to all us outsiders.

Let me tell you a little secret.  One of the pleasures of becoming an ex, and there are many, is that you can soften your heart in a more universal way again.  It's nice.




Re: Answers
 Posted by: Jonathan
 Date: 01/12/2005, 07:49:12
 Original URL: Click here (However, the link may be stale.)

Jonathan: Maharaji's current message is no different than his message thirty years ago.  Sure, the packaging might be different. But, at its core, the thread remains the same: when the master barks, the obedient dogs had better come running.

Premie Response: That's right, Jonathan, the constant message is look for your answers within.

If the message is truly to look within, then why does Maharaji lead his life emphasizing the external, like his possessions and his own conspicuous consumption?

I'm a firm believer in leaders who practice what they preach. A leader acts duplicitously when they encourage their followers to seek their answers within, while the leader himself leads a life of material greed. 

It's funny: these days, Maharaji casts himself as a business leader.  But his wealth emanates from followers who have been told, in one form or another, to donate their personal possessions to Maharaji for their own internal happiness. All the while, Maharaji turns those singular donations into an enormous personal fortune that he neither earned nor deserved.

If you seek inner happiness, Premie Response, then you ought to know that your objective is not shared by your leader. Your inner happiness is a mere by-product of Maharaji's gold-digging, Western exploits, not his Eastern mysticism.

Jonathan

 

 

 




Re: Marolyn and Monica
 Posted by: JHB
 Date: 01/12/2005, 09:30:01
 Original URL: Click here (However, the link may be stale.)
Premie Response,

You wrote in response to Jim's question:-

[Jim] Are you saying that Rawat's affair with Monica and miscellaneous sexual experiences with other women over the years has been a matter of open, respectful mutual agreement between him and Marolyn?

If you know about it Jim, it can hardly be a secret.Maybe Marolyn also knows about Monica?Maybe she and Maharaji have actually come to an agreement?It would certainly appear so.

The existence of Monica as Rawat's long time mistress was a secret until it was revealed by ex-premies. Certainly the few premies who knew about it kept it as a secret, as they tried to do with Rawat's drinking and abusive behaviour.

Regarding Marolyn, I understand she does know about Monica and does not like the situation. This is far from your description of their relationship as an 'open' marriage. Face it, you made that up, didn't you, to rationalise Rawat's behaviour. Why Marolyn stays now that the kids are adults is a mystery that perhaps Marolyn herself would like to explain one day.

John.


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5 Brighter than 1000 suns as seen through night vision goggles
4 As bright as the lights on Maharaji's jet
3 As bright as a 60 watt light bulb
2 As bright as a pile of burning ghi on a swinging arti tray
1 As bright as the inner light as seen by the third eye

Additional Comments 

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